Steve Levit — What Do Medieval Nuns and Bo Jackson Have in Common?

In one sentence

Spite is the behavior where an individual is willing to pay a large personal cost to punish someone else, potentially driven by an internal emotional reward that traditional economics struggles to quantify.

Why read this (and who it's for)

This summary explores the "irrational" side of human behavior: why we do things that hurt us just to hurt others. It is for anyone interested in behavioral economics, evolutionary biology, or the psychological motivations behind human conflict. You will be able to identify the difference between "moral punishment" and "true spite," and understand why humans often act as Homo rivalis (competitive) rather than Homo economicus (purely self-interested).

The big idea

Traditional economics relies on the model of Homo economicus—the idea that humans are rational actors who maximize their own profits and opportunities. However, "spite" presents a massive puzzle for this model: why would a rational actor incur a massive cost to hurt someone else without gaining anything in return?

The podcast explores this by contrasting "revenge" (punishing bad behavior to improve future outcomes) with "true spite" (harming others for no moral reason other than personal satisfaction). While laboratory experiments show that humans frequently choose to destroy others' wealth at their own expense, evolutionary biologist E.O. Wilson suggests that "true" spite—where there is zero benefit to the actor—might not actually exist. Instead, we might be experiencing a "hidden" benefit: the emotional satisfaction of striking out against an enemy.

Key ideas

The Definition of Spite

• What it is — Spite is a behavior where an individual harms themselves at their own cost to harm someone else without creating anything good for a third party or the community.
• Why it matters — It distinguishes "mean" behavior from "educational" punishment. If you punish someone to teach them a lesson or protect the group, it isn't spite; it's a moralistic, social correction.
• In the book — Benedict Herman defines spite as behavior where someone is harmed for no moral reason, solely to satisfy the actor's internal state.

Homo Rivalis vs. Homo Economicus

• What it is — While Homo economicus seeks to maximize personal gain, Homo rivalis is driven by competition—the desire to ensure they get more than the other person.
• Why it matters — It shifts the view of humans from "self-interested" to "relative." We aren't just looking for the biggest pie; we are looking to make sure our slice is bigger than yours.
• In the book — This framework explains why we often engage in "zero-sum" behaviors where the only goal is to win relative to others.

The Ultimatum Game and Spite Experiments

• What it is — A laboratory game where one player splits a pot of money and the other chooses to accept or reject it. If rejected, neither gets anything.
• Why it matters — It proves that people will frequently "throw away" money just to ensure the other person gets less, even when there is no logical reason to do so.
• In the book — Herman and his colleagues ran a variation where a player could surrender $1 to destroy $5 of another's wealth. A "surprising number" of people chose to destroy the other's money for no gain.

The "Hidden" Benefit of Spite

• What it is — The theory that "true" spite (zero benefit) doesn't exist because humans derive an emotional reward from causing harm.
• Why it matters — It suggests that even our most "irrational" acts of self-destruction are actually driven by a complex internal reward system—the "satisfaction" of striking out.
• In the book — E.O. Wilson notes that while some animals (like spiders or ants) perform acts of self-sacrifice, it is almost impossible to find a case in nature where an aggressive act provides zero advantage to the individual.

The Role of Altruism as a Flip Side

• What it is — Altruism and spite are two sides of the same coin: both can be performed in a way that feels good and can be done in a way that is perfectly self-interested.
• Why it matters — It suggests that human behavior is a balance between complete individualism (chaos) and complete altruism (loss of identity).
• In the book — Steve Levit argues that both helping and punishing others can be consistent with "doing the best" for oneself, depending on the internal rewards we receive.

Frameworks & tools

The Spite vs. Revenge Filter

Use this to categorize why someone is acting out. Ask: "Is this person trying to change a future behavior, or are they just trying to hurt the other person?"

1. Identify the Cost: Is the actor incurring a personal loss?
2. Identify the Goal: Is the goal to punish a specific "bad" act (Revenge/Moral Punishment)?
3. Identify the Outcome: If the behavior serves no educational or community purpose and only serves to diminish the other person, it is Spite.

The Homo Rivalis Lens

When analyzing competition, stop asking "How can I win?" and start asking "How can I win more than them?"

1. Identify the Baseline: What is the current status quo?
2. Identify the Rival: Who is the other party in this interaction?
3. Analyze the Relative Gain: Is the goal to maximize a total number, or to ensure the other person's number is lower?

Memorable examples & stories

The Medieval Nuns

In the 9th century, a nun named St. Eba led a group of women to mutilate themselves (cutting off their noses) to prevent rape by invading barbarians. Lesson: This was a horrific trade-off where the cost (physical mutilation) was paid to preserve a social/religious value (chastity).

Bo Jackson's "Spite"

Bo Jackson was offered a massive contract by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to play professional baseball. He turned it down, despite the fact that he could have played both baseball and football. Lesson: Jackson acted to hurt the team's draft pick and PR, choosing to maintain his own autonomy over a massive financial gain. "Spite pays," as he ended up becoming a superstar in both sports.

The Self-Sacrificing Spider

E.O. Wilson describes a spider that allows its offspring to eat her. Lesson: Even in nature, "self-destructive" acts are usually tied to a biological advantage (the survival of the species), suggesting that "pure" self-destruction without any benefit is rare.

Key quotes

"Spite is a behavior where an individual is ready to harm him or herself at own cost to harm somebody else without creating anything good for a third party." — Benedict Herman Why it matters: This provides the academic boundary for what constitutes "true" spite.

"Homo rivalis just wants to make sure he gets more than the other guy." — Steve Levit Why it matters: It explains the human drive for relative status over absolute gain.

"The idea of spite true spite may not really exist because that would mean that I hurt you even though I get nothing for it." — E.O. Wilson (via Steve Levit) Why it matters: It challenges the idea of human irrationality by suggesting there is always a hidden "payoff" (emotional satisfaction).

How to apply it

This week

• Analyze a Conflict: Think of a recent instance where you felt "spiteful." Ask yourself: Was I trying to teach a lesson (Revenge), or was I just trying to make the other person feel as bad as I felt?
• Identify the Rival: In your next professional project, identify who the "rival" is. Are you trying to be the best, or are you just trying to be better than them?

Ongoing

• The Relative Gain Awareness: When making decisions, recognize when you are acting as Homo rivalis. Ensure that your desire to "win" against someone else isn't causing you to incur unnecessary costs.
• The Hidden Reward Check: When you feel the urge to "strike back" at someone, pause and identify the emotional reward you are seeking. Is it worth the cost of the behavior?

Common pitfalls

• Over-extrapolating from the Lab: Steve Levit warns that lab experiments (where people are anonymous and one-off) may not perfectly mirror the "hurly-burly" of the real world.
• The "Irrational" Trap: Don't assume spite is a sign of a broken brain. It may be a deeply ingrained biological mechanism for dealing with perceived threats or competition.

Connects to

• The Selfish Gene (E.O. Wilson): Provides the biological foundation for why certain behaviors (like altruism or aggression) evolve.
• Thinking, Fast and Slow (Daniel Kahneman): Explores the cognitive biases that might lead us to perceive "rivalry" as the default state of human interaction.

If you remember only three things

• Spite is harming yourself to harm another for no external gain.
• Humans are often Homo rivalis—we care about winning relative to others, not just winning in a vacuum.
• "True" spite might not exist; we likely get a hidden emotional "payoff" from hurting others that masks the cost of the act.

Internalize it

• Reflection questions

  • When was the last time I did something that hurt me just to make someone else "lose"? What was the feeling I got immediately after?
  • In my career, am I trying to be the best in my field, or am I trying to be better than a specific competitor? How does that change my strategy?
  • If I assume that "spite" provides an emotional reward, how does that change how I view my own angry reactions?

• Flashcards Q: How does Benedict Herman define "spite"? A: Behavior where an individual harms themselves at their own cost to harm someone else without creating any good for a third party. Q: What is the difference between Homo economicus and Homo rivalis? A: Homo economicus seeks to maximize self-interest/profit; Homo rivalis seeks to ensure they get more than the other person (relative gain). Q: What is the "Ultimatum Game"? A: A game where one player splits a pot and the other can accept or reject it; if rejected, neither gets anything. It shows people will reject a split just to punish the other person. Q: Why does E.O. Wilson think "true" spite might not exist? A: Because it is hard to find any case in nature where an aggressive act provides zero advantage to the individual; there is likely a hidden emotional reward. Q: What was the "spite" example involving Bo Jackson? A: Jackson turned down a massive contract with the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to ensure he wouldn't be "taken" by them, ultimately becoming a star in both baseball and football.

Fidelity note

Confidence is high. This summary is strictly based on the provided transcript. The distinction between "revenge" and "spite" is a core nuance of the conversation. The transcript does not provide specific data on the "number of people" who chose to destroy money in the experiment, only that it was a "surprising number."