Diego Perez (Yung Pueblo) — Jack Kornfield & Yung Pueblo On: How To Meditate When You're Freaking Out, the Limits of the Thinking Mind, & Balancing Self-Interest with Compassion

In one sentence

The goal of practice is not to eliminate difficult emotions or the "noise" of the world, but to develop a spacious, loving awareness that allows you to remain centered while acting with compassion.

Why read this (and who it's for)

This conversation addresses the common frustration of "failing" at meditation—specifically, the feeling that your mind is too loud, angry, or distracted to find peace. It is for anyone who feels overwhelmed by the "thinking mind," anyone struggling to balance personal needs with a desire to be a "good" person, and anyone seeking a more grounded way to navigate conflict and relationships. You will learn how to view your internal struggles as "compost" for growth and how to cultivate a "calm compass" of intuition.

The big idea

The central thesis of the conversation is that the "thinking mind" is an infinite space of perceptions, but it lacks inherent freedom. We often get lost in the "rabbit holes" of our own thoughts—anxiety, anger, and reactive craving—because we haven't built the "muscle" of observation.

Jack Kornfield and Diego Perez argue that the solution isn't to fight these thoughts or suppress them, but to develop a "loving awareness." This is a capacity to be with what is—including pain, fear, and anger—without judging it or being swept away by it. By recognizing the limits of the thinking mind, we can find a "spacious and gracious" place of rest. This inner freedom then allows us to engage with the world, our careers, and our relationships not from a place of reactive ego, but from a place of intentional, compassionate action.

Key ideas

The Limits of the Thinking Mind

The thinking mind is a vast, infinite space of perceptions, but it is not a place of freedom. We often get lost in the "rabbit holes" of our own thoughts, reacting to every passing thought as if it were reality. Why it matters: If you realize that your thoughts are just "noise" in a field of perception, you stop taking them so personally. You can begin to observe them rather than being governed by them. In the conversation: Diego describes the mind as an "infinite space" where you can constantly look at things from different perspectives, but without the "muscle" of observation, you remain lost in that space.

Loving Awareness vs. Judgment

Mindfulness is not just "paying attention"; it is a loving awareness. It means being with your emotions (anger, worry, etc.) without judging yourself or trying to push them away. Why it matters: When you judge your feelings, you create a secondary layer of suffering. Loving awareness allows you to be a "loving witness" to your experience, which provides a sense of freedom from the emotional cycle. In the conversation: Jack explains that when we are aware of our feelings with kindness, we are "somewhat free" from being lost in them.

The Inverse Relationship of Ego and Love

As the ego gets smaller through practice, the capacity for love becomes brighter and more accessible. The ego is self-oriented; love is selfless. Why it matters: You don't "manufacture" love through willpower. Instead, you "decondition" the ego's grip on your identity, which naturally opens up space for compassion to emerge. In the conversation: Jack notes that as the ego "gets thinner," love "starts developing" because there is more space for it to move.

The Role of Community in Practice

You cannot do this alone. We need community to sustain a practice because the "ego" can be a very lonely and demanding place. Why it matters: Community provides "positive peer pressure" and a sense of shared support. It allows us to see our own progress reflected in others. In the conversation: Diego shares how a friend who went on a month-long retreat had "wisdom in his molecules," and how that shared presence helped him stay grounded.

The "Calm Compass" of Intuition

As you decondition the mind's constant chatter, a sense of "knowing" or directionality begins to emerge from the body. Why it matters: This is not the "reactive" energy of the thinking mind (which wants things now). It is a calm, steady sense of direction that helps you make life decisions. In the conversation: Diego describes this as a "calm compass" that doesn't come with the stress of craving, but rather a sense of "knowing" that helps identify when to step outside your comfort zone.

Love as "Care" and "Action"

Love is not just a feeling; it is an inner movement that leads to skillful, compassionate action. It is the "care" we feel for others (and ourselves) that motivates us to act. Why it matters: It moves practice from a private, internal exercise to an external, worldly application. It is the "power" that allows us to show up for others. In the conversation: Jack describes love as a "care" that puts "it all into action," helping us act skillfully in the world.

Frameworks & tools

The "Open Hand" of Connection

To love and receive without being "attached" (which means being controlled or coerced), you must hold your relationships with an "open hand."

1. Identify the Clenched Fist: Recognize where you are trying to control, possess, or force a specific outcome in a relationship.
2. Shift to Voluntary Commitment: Instead of ultimatums, communicate clearly what you can and want to contribute.
3. Maintain the Connection: Keep the "hand" open so that you can receive and give freely without the weight of "grasping."

The "Right Livelihood" Framework

How to integrate spiritual practice into a professional life (the "worldly" activities of business and career).

1. Check Intent: Ask, "What is my best intention?" and "How can I use this to benefit myself and others?"
2. Assess Impact: Does this work increase loneliness and depression, or does it help people?
3. Practice in the Work: View your professional life as a place of evolution where you can be a "household" (provider) while simultaneously practicing the path of liberation.

Memorable examples & stories

The Heavy Boulder

Jack tells a story of his teacher, Ajahn Chow, who asked a group of monks if a large boulder was heavy. When they said yes, he smiled and said, "Not if you don't pick it up." The lesson: We have a freedom to see things as they are, but there is a greater freedom in choosing to rest in a more spacious, mindful awareness rather than getting lost in the "rabbit hole" of our thoughts.

The "Fault" of the Mind

Diego shares a story of a time his wife and he were in separate rooms, and he spent three hours trying to figure out how his internal feelings were her fault. He eventually realized his mind was just "playing" with him. The lesson: The mind often creates imaginary "logical pathways" to blame others for our internal discomfort. Recognizing this mechanism is the first step to freedom.

The Power of Love in Environmentalism

Jack references a conversation with poet Gary Snyder about the environmental crisis. Snyder argued that trying to save the planet out of guilt or anger will only perpetuate the same destructive forces. The lesson: The only power capable of matching the destructive forces of the world is the power of love—the same power that makes a mother protect her child.

Key quotes

"The circle of compassion is only complete when it also includes yourself." — Jack Kornfield Why it matters: Self-compassion is not a luxury; it is the foundation of being able to serve others.

"Love is interrupted by the pain we carry... all love does is open us up." — Diego Perez Why it matters: We often blame love for being "too much" or "too painful," but the pain is actually our own conditioning.

"The ego gets smaller and smaller, and the love in your mind gets brighter and brighter." — Jack Kornfeld Why it matters: This describes the "inverse relationship" of spiritual growth—as we let go of the false self, the true capacity for love expands.

"You can't receive with a closed hand." — Diego Perez Why it matters: If you are too tightly gripped on your own needs and certainties, you lose the ability to be open to the gifts of others.

How to apply it

This week

• The "Loving Witness" Experiment: The next time you feel a spike of anger or anxiety, stop and say to yourself: "I am noticing a feeling of [anger/anxiety]. I am here with it." Do not try to fix it; just observe it with kindness.
• The "Fault" Check: If you find yourself blaming a partner or coworker for your mood, pause and ask: "Is my mind trying to create a story here to explain a feeling I'm having?"
• The "Open Hand" Reflection: Identify one area in a relationship where you are "clenched" (demanding, controlling, or fearful). Practice expressing a voluntary commitment instead of a demand.

Ongoing

• Daily Practice of Impermanence: Spend 5–10 minutes daily acknowledging the truth of impermanence—that everything, including your current problems, is in a state of constant change.
• Right Livelihood Audit: Once a month, look at your professional projects and ask: "How is this helping people? Is it fostering well-being?"
• Community Connection: Find a "meditation buddy" or a group (like Cloud Sangha) to share the "messy" parts of practice—the moments of frustration and overwhelm.

Common pitfalls

• The "Martyr" Trap: One of the biggest risks is swinging from the "ego" to the "martyr" extreme. You can burn out if you try to help everyone at the expense of your own well-being. The goal is balanced compassion.
• The "Denial" Trap: Some think "loving awareness" means ignoring reality. Jack clarifies that it is not about living in denial; it is about seeing things clearly so you can show up and "sweep the garden" of the world with a clear mind.
• The "Thinking" Trap: Many people think they are "meditating" when they are actually just "thinking about meditation." True practice requires a shift from thinking to feeling and observing.

Connects to

• The Work of Byron Katie: For further exploration on how to deconstruct the "stories" the mind tells us.
• The concept of "Right Livelihood" in the Eightfold Path: For a deeper dive into how spiritual practice integrates with daily work.
• The "Wisdom of Uncertainty": To explore how accepting the unknown can actually be a source of profound peace.

If you remember only three things

• The Thinking Mind is a Field of Perception: Your thoughts are not "you"; they are just perceptions in a vast space. You can choose where to rest.
• Loving Awareness is the Key: Practice being a "loving witness" to your emotions rather than a judge or a victim of them.
• Love is an Inner Movement: Love is the "care" that allows you to act skillfully and compassionately in a complex world.

Internalize it

• Reflection questions
  • When I feel "freaked out," what is the specific story my mind is telling me? Can I see that story as a "rabbit hole" rather than a fact?
  • In what ways am I "clenched" in my current relationships? How would it feel to offer an "open hand" instead?
  • How can I turn my current "struggles" (work stress, relationship friction) into "compost" for my personal growth?
• Flashcards
  • Q: What is the difference between the "thinking mind" and "loving awareness"?
  • A: The thinking mind is an infinite space of perceptions where we often get lost in "rabbit holes" of thought; loving awareness is the "muscle" of observation that allows us to be with what is without being swept away.
  • Q: How does the ego relate to love in a meditative practice?
  • A: They have an inverse relationship: as the ego gets "thinner" through deconditioning, the capacity for love becomes "brighter" and more accessible.
  • Q: What does Diego mean by the "calm compass" of intuition?
  • A: It is a sense of knowing that comes from the body during the process of deconditioning the mind; it is not the reactive, stressed energy of the thinking mind.
  • Q: How can we practice "Right Livelihood"?
  • A: By bringing intention to our work, asking how we can benefit others, and ensuring our professional lives are a place of evolution and mindfulness.
  • Q: What is the "Open Hand" approach to relationships?
  • A: It is moving away from "clenched" control and toward voluntary, honest commitments that allow both partners to feel heard and safe.

Fidelity note

This summary is grounded in the provided transcript. It captures the core philosophical distinctions between the "thinking mind" and "loving awareness" as presented by Jack Kornfield and Diego Perez. The summary accurately reflects their views on community, intuition, and the "inverse" relationship between ego and love. The specific "Right Livelihood" and "Open Hand" frameworks were synthesized from their descriptions of professional and relational dynamics.